From: Hubert Figuiere (hub@nyorp.abisource.com)
Date: Wed Jun 05 2002 - 16:43:30 EDT
----- Forwarded message from owner-abiword-user@abisource.com -----
Message-ID: <3CFE9198.5040707@baretta.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 00:32:56 +0200
From: Alessandro Baretta <alex@baretta.com>
Organization: Baretta srl -- www.baretta.com
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417
X-Accept-Language: it, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Dom Lachowicz <doml@appligent.com>,
Abiword <abiword-user@abisource.com>
Subject: Hooray! [was: Please help with bidi support!!!]
References: <3CFE27BC.6070101@baretta.com> <1023286310.20040.7.camel@sneakypenguin> <3CFE7B34.4020505@baretta.com> <1023304571.20152.52.camel@sneakypenguin>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello Dom. Thanks for writing. (BTW: Hooray! David got bidi
to work for me!)
Dom Lachowicz wrote:
> Allesandro,
>
> I believe that there is a communication problem here - we've obviously
> misunderstood what you want. There is most likely a bug here. I've
> talked with Tomas Frydrych, and he's promised to look into your bug
> ASAP, which I believe means "tomorrow" for him (UK time).
Alright. I'm not in a hurry. Now though, keep in mind that I
got the bidi function to work by pressing the "cba" button.
I still think there is a bug somewhere, because the
right-to-left feature should be accessible through the
"Format->Paragraph->Right-to-left" checkbox, so probably it
would be useful for Tomas to look into this.
> As a side note, I'm quite fed up with your temperment. You're just
> asking for trouble now and trying to start another flame. We aren't
> insulting you. We aren't necessarily ignoring you, at least not on
> purpose. We get yelled at for not answering your bug. We get yelled at
> for answering your bug. "Damned if we do, damned if we don't..."
No, I am not asking for trouble, only for attention. Dom, I
realize that you guys are overwhelmed by requests, to many
of which an answer like "RTFM" is more than appropriate.
But, believe me, I did my best to document the bug I found
with as much detail as I deemed necessary. When you "killed"
my bug report marking it "invalid" I was rather
disappointed. But that does not mean I am damning you.
Reread my post. May *I* be damned I have been disrespectful.
Dave seems to have taken my post differently, and I think
his attitude is the correct one. Anyhow, rest assured of my
appreciation for your work, especially now that, thanks to a
bit of advice from Dave, I am able to make the right-to-left
feature work.
> Not a whole lot of developers are subscribed to this list, nor should
> they have to be. Not a lot of developers are focusing on any one
> particular bugzilla bug, including yours. Your bug is in a specific area
> of code familiar to *one* person on our team. He is not subscribed to
> this list, nor does he sort though bugzilla frequently. If you really
> need to know, he is currently working on revisions and hidden text.
Alright. I am not entitled to get "my" bug fixed before
anybody elses. I just feel that a bug report should be
discussed and understood before being unduly marked
"invalid". In all likelihood, I have actually uncovered a
real bug, which deserves being adressed, sooner or later. It
is crucial, though, that the countermeasures that allow the
users to circumvent it be well understood, and, insofar as
possible, documented. Now I know that the buggy "bidi"
support is the one activated through the
"format->paragraph->righ-to-left" checkbox, and that the
"cba" button, uncovered by deactivating the "custom toolbar"
checkbox in the Preferences, allows to circumvent the bug.
> Our answers are short, but I'd rather think of them as "short and sweet"
> or "short and to the point" rather than "short and insulting", as you
> allege.
Short and insulting are orthogonal concepts. What is
_somewhat_ offensive (but I can live with it) is that I have
to pound my feet on the ground and yell like a madman before
anyone believes me when I say something weird is going on.
Yes, quite a few users around the net want some manners and
some neurons, but are we not all entitled to the benefice of
doubt, until proven guilty of idiocy?
> In order to properly triage a bug, we might need to know certain things:
> 1) Do you have a BiDi build
> 2) Did you hit the special buttons that you need to get BiDi working
> 3) What pperating system
> 4) Do you have the appropriate fonts installed
> 5) ...
Man, as a user, it's my job to give you all the information
you ask for. But the above list is the first serious attempt
at tracking the bug I uncovered ever since I mentioned it on
this mailing list. I am more than glad to contribute in any
way: just tell me what you need me to do.
I feel that the superficiality with which the problem was
considered has led to a considerable waste of time, not so
much on my part as on yours, Dom, as well of a few other
team members who looked into the matter. It took only two
rounds of e-mail to find the solution to the problem,
beginning with your suggestion to use the "cba" button. How
many vacuous rounds of communication have preceded this one?
Have they not been a waste of your time?
> This is not to be taken as patronizing. We *need* this information from
> you in order to better help you. For example, I was contacted 2 weeks
> ago from a user who said that a MSWord document crashed AbiWord. I asked
> for the document in question, and he refused and flamed me for asking
> for such a small and vital piece of information. His outrage is
> unwarranted.
Of course you do need all the information which pertains to
the problem under attention. And, yes, I fully agree with
you that his outrage is unwarranted. A user denouncing a bug
*must* document the exact conditions under which the
unexpected and incorrect behavior occurs. If he or she is
unable or, worse, unwilling to do so, than his or her bug
report is useless. Rest assured that I will give Tom or any
other member of the team any all support needed.
> Do not take our questions as insults - if we feel that we need to know
> something more in order to help you, you will give us that information
> if you wished to be helped. Contrary to popular belief, this mailing
> list exists for reasons other than to persecute/ignore you in
> particular.
I am a peaceful individual, Dom, and definitely not a
paranoid. I believe this mailing list exists to allow
anybody wishing to express his opinions concerning AbiWord
to do so. There is no obligation on anybody to read or
answer to anybody else's post. Yet, why bother putting up a
mailing list if users' requesting comments and feedback are
given none? I am not referring only to the developers, but
also to other users. Can it be true that I am the only
user/system administrator needing to support right-to-left
languages? Where are the other users? Why did no one of them
candidly state a "worksforme" at the very start of the
thread? This is something I find inexplicable. I am used to
other mailing lists where the users are just as attentive
and participative as the developers. Free software
constitutes a "community" rather than a "market" because
everybody must play his part of the game: developers
develop, users use and contribute to the diffusion of the
culture concerning software itself. At least, this is what
*should* happen.
> Don't let your frustrations get the best of you. You don't need to be
> coddled. Life often presents you with answers you don't like, or
> information that is less than helpful, in your opinion. Life goes on.
> You're asking for favors from others, and we're trying to help you.
> Please respect that.
You have all my respect, Dom. Nonetheless, I was entitled to
a measure of frustration, and letting it, as you might
have told me a few weeks ago, has gone to my benefit as well
as to that of the community, I believe. My user has gained a
word processor he can use, I have gained the satisfaction of
making him happy, and we all gained a better understanding
of what this bug actually pertains to. I think the balance
is positive. Which makes more appreciative of AbiSource's
work than ever before.
> The best thing that you could do at this moment is to post a link to
> your message (http://www.abisource.com/mailinglists/abiword-user/02/Jun/
> ... ) into your bugzilla bug, so that Tomas will see a better testcase
> and better explanation when he looks at the problem tomorrow. The more
> useful information he has, the better he can address your concerns.
At your service. It shall be done directly.
> Dom
> /who used to get a good feeling from trying to help users/
I think you still should. ;-)
My very best regards to Dom, David, Tomas, and all the rest
of the team.
Alex Baretta
----- End forwarded message -----
-----------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to
abiword-user-request@abisource.com with the word
unsubscribe in the message body.
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Wed Jun 05 2002 - 16:43:32 EDT